tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2269573587631126943.post817539865734770838..comments2023-06-07T08:05:44.732-07:00Comments on The Right Word: John the Baptist and Aristotle: The Failings and Futility of Natural Theology RevisitedDr. Michael Baumanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05013245754748702406noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2269573587631126943.post-1868627343198298972011-09-21T15:41:13.471-07:002011-09-21T15:41:13.471-07:00Here here Dr. Bauman!Here here Dr. Bauman!Keythushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14426884943527644571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2269573587631126943.post-25642154316304732712011-09-08T06:03:54.870-07:002011-09-08T06:03:54.870-07:00David,1) So as to avoid confusion, what I mean by ...David,<br><br>1) So as to avoid confusion, what I mean by "knowing God" is defined in the post called "Defining Terms."<br><br>2) Matt 11 says that no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him The words "no one" here admit of no exception. Aristotle, for example, who purports to have knowledge of God, does not. He did not get his alleged knowledge by means of the Son, which means that not all god-talk is actually talk about God, even though it is meant to be, and not all that we identify as knowledge of God really is that.<br><br>3) Matt 11 also implies that the Son is revealed by the Father and the Father by the Son. It is, so to speak, a package deal. It goes together. Knowing One involves knowing the Other. To get inside that circle of knowing requires the election and redeeming grace of God. Not everyone has it. It is, according to Christ's own words here, Christocentric, and exclusively so.<br><br>4) The idea that John the Baptist did not know God in Christ apart from miraculous divine attestation is drawn from John's own words. He actually says it twice. I am more inclined to believe John's own words about himself than either Augustine's or Chrysostom's words about him centuries after the fact, especially when John's words are inspired and inscripturated and theirs are not.<br><br>5). If you like, I'll post a fuller explanation of Matt 11, which is already written.<br><br>6) Regarding the 1500 AD joke, it reminds me of something one of my Catholic colleagues, who teaches history, says about the Reformation and after: "I don't do current events."<br><br>Cheers!<br>MichaelDr. Michael Baumanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05013245754748702406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2269573587631126943.post-50600226568454221662011-09-07T22:40:34.182-07:002011-09-07T22:40:34.182-07:00Dr. Bauman, It seems to me that John did know Jesu...Dr. Bauman, <br>It seems to me that John did know Jesus and did know that He was the Messiah. Augustine writes, “Was this the first revelation made to John of Christ's person, or was it not rather a fuller disclosure of what had been already revealed? John knew the Lord to be the Son of God, knew that He would baptize with the Holy Ghost: for before Christ came to the river, many having come together to hear John, he said unto them, He that comes after me is mightier than I: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.”<br><br>John Chrysostom is in agreement that John knew him more than what you are implying. He writes, “When he said, I knew Him not, he is speaking of time past, not of the time of his baptism, when he forbade Him, saying, I have need to be baptized of You.”<br><br>There are many degrees of knowing someone and you seem to take this too far to make your point about Aristotle. What you say about Aristotle may be true but you go too far about JTB. I must also pause when you state that JTB doubted Jesus. What we do know is that he sent his disciples to ask a question of Jesus. We don’t know what his ultimate motive was. I have read that early Church Fathers believed this was for the behalf of his disciples and not for himself. That makes more sense to me. I doubt that he doubted quite frankly. JTB’s life motto should be lived by us all, Jesus must increase and I must decrease.<br><br>One final point, you write, “Short of that miracle, even JTB did not know, and could not know, what we all need to know: God, Who is revealed only in Christ.” You reference Matt 11:27, “All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” This does not say God is revealed ONLY in Christ. You turn a truth statement into a false statement by adding “only”. We know for a fact from Rom. 1 that some aspect of God is revealed in creation. <br><br>Clearly, the fullness of revelation is Jesus, but you make a contradiction by saying only. You could say God is only revealed fully in Christ (Col. 2:9) because that would be true, but it would include creation and all things that come through Jesus.<br><br>Have I erred in my defense of JTB? I will admit that he is one of my heroes and I could be too biased. I know little so that is why I defer to those like Augustine and Chrysostom. There are many others but I thought you may have heard of those two even though they are long before the 1500s :0).<br><br>David U.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com